BlogRumors, rumors!
by Server GoddessIt seems that the rumors for a version 3 of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay are not ending. Recently a post in Graham McNeil’s blog mentioned playtesting WFRP 3 which lead to a flood of forum-posts at the StS-forums as well as the FFG-WFRP-forums. What concerns some people is the fact that the game mechanics (according to Mr. McNeil) seem to be very different from what we know from its predecessors:“The game was very different to anything I’ve played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural.”, Graham McNeil writes.
I think I’m not alone when I say that the first impression I had was: oh, FFG jumps on the D&D 4e bandwagon. . From a business view it makes perfectly sense: people who liked D&D 4e might give this game a try. But would that be WFRP anymore? So some people are already seeing the Dark Ages coming back. Just to steal this pessimists the thunder: all we have up to now is a post in someones blog, this person might be in good contact with GW and FFG, nevertheless we are still lacking an official statement from FFG or GW. So as long as they remain silent a WFRP 3 is not confirmed.
If the rumors are true we will see. It might take some time until the game will published. And then we could give it a try. Perhaps its not a bad game? Who can tell? If it is in fact a D&D 4e clone I doubt that I’ll play it - why play the copy when you can play the original? Therefore I think that there is no need for panic - even if WFRP does not continue to be the game we knew, what keeps us from playing WRFP v1/v2 in the future?
July 9th, 2009 at 8:46 am
“So as long as they remain silent a WFRP 3 is not confirmed.”
That’s exactly right. Even if all the things in McNeill’s blog were true, FFG might pull the plug at any time. Although I’d think that it would not be likely.
July 9th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Ugh. If Jay Little came on board to gut the WFRP I have known and loved since 1986 (even v2 enjoys so much from v1; Chris Pramas says as much in his design notes at the back of the core rulebook).
I can tell you I will not buy a D&D 4e clone, or a version of WFRP that attempts to find the “best of [insert your favorite MMORPG]” in a pen and paper game. Maybe I’m old school. If FFG wants such a game, experiment with Rouge Trader and WH40K RPGs; leave WFRP alone.
My vote is cast, rumor or not… I won’t be refreshing my WFRP bookshelf. Said another way: FFG will not be earning my dollars against a WFRP v3 that looks like an MMORPG.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Hi there
If it is true that there is a version 3 in the vicinity, i think this will be the death of WFRP. The best thing ffg (or any other publisher) should do:
Make a WFRP 1.5. Use the old rules plus som enhancements from the combat section of version2 (and maybe v2 magic - but i like more the hogshead variant of realms of sorcery). And then adventures, adventures, adventures and then sourcebooks (i miss the elf book and a book of arby can be interesting).
Greetings from the Rheinland - it’s f%&($&§ cold here
Reiklander
July 12th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
A dice pool system is mentioned in the blog…
Perhaps I`m jumping to conclusions, but - this sounds like dreadful, dumbed down whizz bang gimmickry for tha munchkin WOW kidz. I`ve been roleplaying for around 20 years and have never been convinced by such systems. They may be vogueish and modern, but that doesn`t mean they are any damn good. If I wanted to play vampire I would buy it.
July 12th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Where does this absurd idea of dice pools dumbing down games come from? I’ve played games with roll-over-target-number systems, percentile systems and dice pool systems, and god knows what else, and they all boil down to much the same thing: roll the dice, get a result.
More generally, I really wish people would just stop worrying about rules, which are easily changed or substituted, and instead start demanding interesting and original setting and character material that demonstrates some genuine creativity and thought for a change.
Regards
Robin
July 12th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
”I really wish people would just stop worrying about rules, which are easily changed or substituted, and instead start demanding interesting and original setting and character material ”
Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly about setting material, I can’t agree about mechanics. I think that they are important to how action/narratives are perceived and conceived of in-game. Obviously we can all play the mechanics we want to, but ideally we want the most suitable ones to actually come with the game.
Some people take the same argument with background. If you don’t like it change it. Of course we can all do that but it’s hardly the ideal solution is it?
People say that things don’t matter and we shouldn’t care. Why not? You’ve got to care about something. It’s only a game so it’s not going to change the world, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t care about something you enjoy and have invested a lot of time in.
Sure, people get over excited about stuff sometimes but I don’t see that anyone’s concerns deserve to be belittled. Mechanics are as much a part of the game as anything else.
July 12th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
“If you don’t like it change it. Of course we can all do that but it’s hardly the ideal solution is it?”
Actually, I think that is precisely the ideal solution.
Regards
Robin
July 12th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
”Actually, I think that is precisely the ideal solution.”
Surely that is a self-defeating argument in direct conflict with your professed desire for ‘better’ background material?
July 12th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
“Surely that is a self-defeating argument in direct conflict with your professed desire for ‘better’ background material?”
I don’t think so. A well-developed idea can be altered and shaped to fit, or used in another context; and an original one is worth altering if it needs to be. A poorly developed idea requires a lot more effort and an unoriginal idea is a waste of time and money. So, give me something original, interesting and well-developed, and I can either use it as it is, or change as necessary.
When it comes to rules systems there are dozens of them, none of them perfect and none of them appealing to everyone. However, most of them are perfectly adequate and often adaptable. WFRP could be run with Savage Worlds, Ars Magica, Basic Role-Play, Over the Edge or Storyteller/ing, and probably many others.
With regard to WFRP3, I don’t believe it matters what the rules look like. What’s going to make or break it for fans of the setting is, well, the setting, and the attitude and philosophy the writers bring to it. That’s what concerns me most.
Regards
Robin
July 12th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
”That’s what concerns me most. ”
That doesn’t make some of the rest of us’s concerns irrelevant.
I would, and have, argued that mechanics can be distinctive and can also be developed from interesting ideas. Inappropriate systems are much harder to ‘fix’ to suit the setting and gamestyle.
You take the view that all systems are just resolving things based on a dice roll. I’d say that’s simplistic and that some are mimetic of the action, whilst others don’t create that illusion.
It’s perfectly legitimate for people to voice concerns about mechanics. I know I have them and it matters to me. I don’t expect to be told that I shouldn’t be discussing them (especially as its the only thing we have anything to go on at all at the moment).
July 12th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
“It’s perfectly legitimate for people to voice concerns about mechanics.”
The concern that was voiced in this case was:
“A dice pool system is mentioned in the blog… Perhaps I`m jumping to conclusions, but - this sounds like dreadful, dumbed down whizz bang gimmickry for tha munchkin WOW kidz.”
I asked a simple question: “Where does this absurd idea of dice pools dumbing down games come from?”
“I don’t expect to be told that I shouldn’t be discussing them”
At no point did I say you or anyone else shouldn’t be discussing them. I said: “I really wish people would just stop worrying about rules”
Regards
Robin
July 23rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
I would appreciate a WFRP3. I am no fan of the 2nd ed rules. (the 1st are better) And if they are pepping it up with fresh and innovative ideas (even actions cards), why not? As 2nd edition stands now, its dead. I guess, except some hundred diehard fans nobody cares about the system at the moment. The dark age for WFRP will not begin, it has already begun. FFG has to bring in fresh blood (and a 3rd edition) in order to end it.
July 26th, 2009 at 12:22 am
@Robin Low - Interesting points, I will clarify what I meant when I feel dice pools are indicitive of dumbing down.
As I see it, and I am sure many others here are of the same opinion - dice pool systems tend to beget and facilitate powergaming, and you cant really deny that. Thats why they are used.
This is a problem because the gritty WFRP world we know and love isnt about this style of roleplaying (although it now seems that the next incarnation may be). Just look at Godlike and WOD, which both use such systems - dice pools are fine in those contexts since characters are generally high powered. Its not the best fit. That may be what you want to see for the setting, but I certainly don`t.
July 26th, 2009 at 11:10 am
“As I see it, and I am sure many others here are of the same opinion - dice pool systems tend to beget and facilitate powergaming, and you cant really deny that. Thats why they are used.”
In all seriousness, please explain to me *how* dice pools beget and facilitate powergaming.
Can you also explain why the Careers and Advances system is any better with regard to powergaming, especially with examples like extended Career pathways for Troll Slayers or the fact that some players of both editions have always looked for the fastest routes to Careers with higher Advances and Skills?
Regards
Robin
July 26th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
“Just look at Godlike and WOD, which both use such systems - dice pools are fine in those contexts since characters are generally high powered. ”
I don’t know about Godlike, but I do know WoD. Dicepools have nothing to do with powergaming, IMHO. In fact new WoD has reduced the powerlevel of all the critters I know of. Also the designers were fed up with the powergamers, making sidebars for storyteller about “shotgun Brujah no. 42 with 4 dots in firearms, potence and celerity”. It is the focus of the campaign and how the characters are created that makes powerful or non-powerful characters.
WoD essentially being a point-buy chargen *does* encourage powergaming. It has nothing to do with dicepools.
Same with another point-buy/dicepool game I know, Shadowrun. Dicepools don’t encourage powergaming, point-buy chargen does. GURPS is not a dicepool game, but the point-buy chargen can (and will) result in crazy-ass midget characters with powerarmors and railguns who are terminally ill.
Also WFRP in all it’s incarnations can be powergamed. Look at all the nekkid dwarfses runnin’ around in v1 and all the Bretonnian knights and Runesmiths in v2, and try to tell me that they are not powergamer wet dream careers.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:22 am
“Also WFRP in all it’s incarnations can be powergamed. Look at all the nekkid dwarfses runnin’ around in v1 and all the Bretonnian knights and Runesmiths in v2, and try to tell me that they are not powergamer wet dream careers.”
With this, I am inclined to agree. I have noticed the Toughness rule making characters too resilient to damage too many times, as a player and a Game Master.
Also, what comes to careers, I think that every career with multiple +40% advances is overpowered, at least somewhat. If there was only one such advance in a career, that I could accept, but seems that there are more than one careers which have multiple +40% advances.
“Same with another point-buy/dicepool game I know, Shadowrun. Dicepools don’t encourage powergaming, point-buy chargen does. GURPS is not a dicepool game, but the point-buy chargen can (and will) result in crazy-ass midget characters with powerarmors and railguns who are terminally ill.”
Point-buy systems can cause overpowered characters indeed, if you give the players completely free hands to create their characters. However, if you put in some “healthy limits” in the amounts of points they can use to their skills or whatsoever, that has a huge impact in avoiding powergame characters.
Personally, I have used GURPS 4th Edition (which is an improvement to 3rd Edition in every possible aspect) for a while now, and have not encountered the powergaming issue since, due to newly-balanced point costs in all things.
So far, I have got the new GURPS working well in the Warhammer Fantasy universe, and the PCs have been just as much prone to death as the NPCs, and a couple of times during my campaigns, a full PC party wipe has occurred, with fair chance of survival included. So, I think the GM must make some limits in character creation, if powergaming is to be avoided in point-buy systems. With GURPS rules this seems to be quite possible, judging by my personal experience, but I am not sure about WoD.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
This is no longer a rumour.
August 14th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Alright, let me chip in here. I dissagree about the need for a new system, for a variety of reasons.
I do in fact believe a dicepool would be precisely wrong for WFRP, and so I will attempt to give a good reason why. You have an exact number bonus for your skill in 2e. You do not usually know your opponents bonus, though you can guess. In this way, the decision whether to fight or retreat is made for tension. After all, even the toughest characters in 2E can go down in three lucky strikes from even the smallest opponent, even the T6 A6s can be brought down with a couple lucky smacks. This is one of WFRPs most important features, which I will explain shortly. With a dicepool system, if you see the GM pick up more dice than you, you instantly know your opponent’s ability. You may miss out on the +2 Modifier, but you can guage fairly accurately his strength. This is effectively pointing out for you if you should still fight or run. The luck factor exists, but a certain level of mystery is gone when everyone isn’t opperating with the same two dice. That mystery is key for WFRP. I love 4E DnD, but I play it to be a hero, and do heroic things. WFRP is not about heroes, and never has been. It is a blend between Lovecraftian Horror and Realistic Fantasy. Let’s face it, WFRP is one of the few games where -casting- your spell can kill you. The whole point of this game is the gritty, peasantdirt feel. If we make our characters heroes instead of mercenaries and desperates, as I feel a dicepool system promotes, (especially because a power pool of any kind instantly calls to mind games like Diablo, another game where you are a definate hero) by making it seem as if your character has power…pooled. However, WFRP is not about your character’s power. It is about their lack of power. That’s why our classes -include- Knights, but are mostly comprised of servants, valets, and charcoal burners. The game is about a world where things are unfair, filthy, disease-ridden, and downright lethal to you. It’s not about slaying the dragon and winning the princess. It’s about trying to stay alive one more day. 2E has a good deal more it needs to do before they run off and start 3E. Araby, the Elves, Cathay, Lustria, the Chaos Wastes. And that’s just geographically. My point is, and feel free to argue, that to put in a dicepool implies that your character has pooled power, as if they are a hero waiting to emerge. WFRP, however, isn’t about being a knight in shining armor, with power behind every swordswing. It isn’t about magic items and shiny equipment. It’s about wiping dung off your boots and out of your eyes, about fighting tooth and nail just to survive another day in a world that -does not- need you.
As Steve D. of D Constructions said (paraphrased), “If your players aren’t ducking to avoid the next fanload of crap, you aren’t playing right.”
WFRP is based off a wargame, not a board game. We need it to feel like war. Real war, with disease, grievous, incurable wounds, and a fear of death at every corner. Not D&D, the Warhammer Years. If anything, a third edition should become MORE punishing to players, maybe use Ars Magica (4th ed)s healing table, you know, the one that takes Months in game to recover.
I love 2e, and I believe it was a crime to have BL lose it to Fantasy Flight, who hasn’t done anything with the licensing at all. If 3e truly is in the works, then I hope they actually figure out what it is that makes Warhammer what it is, instead of the latest RPG trends.
Hopefully this was helpful.
August 15th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
I am looking forward to the 3rd edition. ffg has an excellent reputation for designing good games (contrary to the 3rd publisher DND crap Green Ronin makes mostly) I am really curious what the 3rd edtion looks like and how it plays.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Thank you Enpeze for providing contrast to the knee-jerk naysayers and pessimists of the thread!
August 24th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
well, the videos are up on the FFG site, and having reviewed the sales pitch, i have to say i beleive this is the death of WFRP in favour of warhammer quest v2. I now officially hate FFG, if they wanted to redo warhammer quest, that would be fine, but why kill WFRP for it? i would have preferred to see lustrria, araby or tomb kings material.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Great; first we lose the high quality books (I may be the only one that has found the new compilations falling apart - but I suspect not) - now we lose the game.
The again - it may be an improvement - but somehow I doubt it.. WFDnD4eVampireRP here we come.
Ho Hum.
Franbo
September 7th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
… amend that; just taken a look at the FFG site; all hpe is gone - looks like WFRP is dead for now.
Franbo